505 sailors:
While in Damp at the Europeans I had the opportunity to ask a number of people for their thoughts on possible changes to the 505 Worlds races. Amongst the people I spoke with, a majority were in favour of altering our now standard format, and having two races a day at major championships. Clearly the races would have to be shorter than our current one-race-a-day length. Opinions were mixed on whether this shortening was best accomplished by reducing the length of the legs or the number of the legs. Concerns about short first windward legs with large fleets in conditions where everyone goes the same speed were expressed. Perhaps these could be dealt with by having longer first beats.
In order to solicit opinions from a much wider range of 505 sailors, I thought we could discuss this on the e-mail list. Perhaps after some e-mail discussion, we can make appropriate suggestions at the Hyannis Annual Meeting...
Regards to all,
Ali
1. Are you in favour of changing the current format?
2. If so, do you wish to have more than one race a day?
3. If so, would you prefer 2, 3 or more races?
4. Should these shorter races have shorter legs, or fewer legs?
5. Would you be in favour of relaxing the current Championship Rules http://www.int505.org/r-CHAMP.htm regarding how far away from shore the course should be?
Here is some of the relevant text..
"2.1 Choice of WaterThe sailing water shall be chosen with care to ensure reliable sailing conditions. Particular attention shall be given to the following considerations, subject to the provisions of Rule C-9.0:
2.1.1 The centre of the race course triangle shall be at least two nautical miles away from any land
2.1.2 The sailing area shall not be subject to extremes of strength or complexity of tidal streams
2.1.3 Land adjoining the course area should not significantly deflect the wind
2.1.4 Predicted climatic conditions should assure suitable winds which are reasonably steady in direction and strength "
This precludes the class running Championships in a number of popular venues, but does provide class 505 style races...
Plus the length of the course has made seem clear over the years that the best boat usually has won the series.
Tom Kivney
We keep on saying that we sail 505s for the love of sailing and the feel of the boat. Then we go out and sail 1 - 2 to 3 hour race, and go back and drink beer. Doing back to back 2 hour or 1.5 hour gives us more sailing time and does not cut into our drinking time.
It will also help for those that make only two mistakes in the regatta but as a result will not have a chance to win. Because everyone else made one mistake.
My 2 cents.
Chris Gillies
Personally I like the way we are doing it now, I see a problem, if you have a damage on the boat in the first race, you are out for the day, and all your discards are gone, If its in the last race offcourse the situation is another one.
Tom Boejland
DEN 8622
A long first beat for big fleets, then a variety of short course options, lots of corners cos thats where it all happens, more starts, suddenly sailing is fun again.
And before the old chestnut about gear failure gets trotted out, there's a 2 word answer for that ' Boat preparation'. Besides if you slot in more races then you can always have more discards. More races are lost to bad weather when extra ones could have been sailed in perfect breezes than ever have been due to a broken vang or whatever.
More races will mean better championships, I am sure Ali will be able to tell us how many of the last few worlds/ euro's have gone the complete distance. No disrespect to anyone, but is it the best way to decide a champs on 3 or 4 races cos you've sat on the beach with no wind, too much or even worse just the right amount but only one race a day is allowed.
Vote for change!
All the best
Mark Darling UK
Last weekend I sailed at South Western Area Championships at Weymouth where we sailed 6 short races, none of which was the traditional championship course, in 2 days. I'm not going to say that the courses were perfect but certainly I prefer sailing several (shorter) races in a day than sailing one long race. I also recognise that weekend events are differnet to week long championships but last year at the UK Nationals at Brighton we tried to sail a couple of shorter races most days (and fitted in 3 on one day to make up for races lost earlier in the week; with one really long race, the race of the year, sailed on the last day (which was postponed from earlier in the week).
2. If so, do you wish to have more than one race a day?
Yes - but I think we should still have in a 6/7 day champioinship a couple of days when we only sail one longer race.
3. If so, would you prefer 2, 3 or more races?
2 races/day.
4. Should these shorter races have shorter legs, or fewer legs?
Shorter legs + a variety of courses.
Chris Romans
Boat preparation won't repair a torn spinnaker blown out in a nasty capsize or a fumbled gybe.
Boat preparion won't fix a broken mast caused by turning turtle in shallow water.
OK - don't get in these situations, I agree, but sh*t happens, and a multi race day format can penalize severly.
There are merits to both sides of the argument.
The short race format emphasizes boat handling skills, the long race format emphasizes tactical skills, it is a lot tougher to get a championship 2 mile beat right than a club course half miler.
Mark writes "2 hour + races are dull, boring, tedious " - there are not if you are winning !
Will Hartje
Chris
CAN8410
As I have not yet sailed the Worlds, I can't say.
2. If so, do you wish to have more than one race a day?
3. If so, would you prefer 2, 3 or more races?
4. Should these shorter races have shorter legs, or fewer legs?
I like the idea of mixing it up. Maybe four or five long course, one race days, and two or three shorter course, two race days.
5. Would you be in favour of relaxing the current Championship Rules
http://www.int505.org/r-CHAMP.htm
regarding how far away from shore the course should be?
I don't think the distance from shore matters. I think distance to bottom matters more. I am sure that in some areas there is very exciting sailing near shore, and if there is little danger of breaking a mast should you turtle, we should be able to use them. I think the race organizers should be able to decide where the best racing conditions are.
I think the long courses have become a somewhat integral part of the class, but I think we should be open to at least some variation. I keep seeing race reports saying the RC set some unsual course (for the class - ie not worlds or old Olympic) and the teams loved them.
If there is some way to avoid major first mark congestion, I say try something different for a couple races out of the series. I see no reason why a major championship has to be all long races, or all short/multiple races.
Bill Green
Denver, Colorado
USA 6491
Being a veteran of the 505-class (sailing since 1968) I did participate in quite some worlds of the class. I would comment your questions as follows:
1. Yes , we should overhaul the current rules
2. We should have the possibility to race 2 or more races a day, however if so, their should perhaps be more than one discard in order to prevent problems with your boat (broken masts etc.)
3. see 2
4. I think we should have shorter and not fewer legs, however, since with a gate-start it would be easy to organize, we should at least have a very long first beat. In order to lose less time between the races we should allow the finish to be at the same place as the start (as they do it for instance in Riva at lake Garda).
5. Yes we should relax the current Championship rules, however, if so, the class should have a final saying about the location of the course
Kind regards
Urs Scherrer
SUI 8440
Boat preparation won't save you from an idiot poking a hole in your boat as he barges in at a mark.
Boat preparation won't repair a torn spinnaker blown out in a nasty capsize or a fumbled gybe.
Boat preparion won't fix a broken mast caused by turning turtle in shallow water.
And of course the sky might fall in.( joke) Just how often do the above actually have an effect on the outcome?
I think we need to look at the big picture of falling turnouts, increased competition from other not so established classes, and feedback from the majority who don't fight it out at the front to see that if change doesn't occur then people will vote with their feet/wallet and find alternative forms of enjoyment. It's no fun to be lapped, to finish half an hour after the leaders. Keep it short and sweet and keep everyone involved.
Mark writes "2 hour + races are dull, boring, tedious " - there are not if you are winning !
Well I suppose if one crew in the race are having fun that makes it alright then.
regards
Mark Darling uk
1. Yes change format.
2. yes 2 would be great.
3. 2 to 3 races. Make the worlds a 12 race series over 4 days....with 1 spare day. I think in many western countries today. Time is becoming more precious for folks and as people get older other commitments come into play. Shorter Worlds venues would promote MORE people attending and keeping better sailors. I thought we were down to a 1 week planned worlds timeframe?? What happened in Hyannis?
4. I think the same length is fine. But sail a Triangle then W/L Not Worlds courses. On the average not much place changing happens on the last triangle.
5. yes/No. I think then you get into potentially bogus course areas, but it depends. In a place like SC. You can literally sail 1/2 mile out and be in PLENTY of blue water. But in some places you might need to be much further to get a good race track. I think rule should stand and can be waived for some venues if a majority of the Int'l committee agrees. That might let other good venues that wouldn't qualify then qualify (Like Garda???)
Bruce Edwards
I like to think our Worlds Championships are something special. We regularly have close quarters racing either round the cans at our home club, or the new short courses at most of our UK Meetings. I prefer something different for the Worlds.
I like the 1.5 mile legs of the Worlds, a chance to sail in clean air, even if you're not at the front, and the opportunity to take a completely different route up the beat or down the run.
Only our current format provides this. I think we should leave well alone.
Clive Robinson
GBR 8676
Nigel
AUS6483
Back marker, but working on something better. Slowly.
So what's your point? Are you for or against 2 races per day? (and why?)
Chad Price
Being a puddle sailer and a former collegiate sailer, I am accustomed to multiple short races. I have also done distace races in keelboats for a number of years. I appreciate both formats for their own charms. However, I cannot imagine doing short races (30 - 50 min duration) in a fleet of 100+ boats. The mark roundings would be horrendous; there would be NO clear air for anyone but the one, single leader, and even for that hardy soul, clear air would be temporary. Imagine a run with a solid wall of spinnakers behind.
Conclusion: multiple short races can work with smaller fleets (maybe up to 40 boats) and I think such a format could (should?) be used for NAs, Canadians, or other regattas with the appropriate number of boats. The Worlds must be sailed with longer races! I also advocate for plenty of time on shore at the Worlds, so meetings, discussions, and (ahem) drinking can be enjoyed. "Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who. This is an 'appy occasion!"
A point about winners... Yes, there is only one crew that is awarded first place in a regatta. BUT there are races going on throughout the entire depth of a World's fleet. There are personal rivalries (I have a standing six-pac bet with certain colleagues), and there are crews trying just to stay out of DFLast. These are important competitions that are meaningful to the likes of me and should not be minimized.
My modest opinion.
Dave Stetson
By the ninth race we were very tired. If there are more races than are scheduled there should be more of the races dropped.
Either way whether more or fewer races, it's still great sailing.
Regards,
Peter Epstein
CAN 4134 "Over Easy"
With 7 races total and one discard, if you have damage and are out for the day you don't use up all your discards, while with 14 races and 2 discards you do? Forgive me if I fail to understand that arithmetic.
Seems to me that if you have 14 races and 2 discards, you have half the chance (surely not a greater one) of using up all your discards with one gear failure. Afternoon races (after the wind comes up) would seem the more likely to result in gear failures; and a failure then consumes only half your discards. Also, a world champion's boat should be well enough prepared that no failures occur; isn't having a well-equipped and well-prepared boat, strong and seaworthy, part of the characteristics of a champion? If not, if it's ONLY plain boat-handling we want to reward, then use identical unsophisticated super-strong boats (with no choice of rigging or hardware differences, and smaller sail area to eliminate breakages) and rotate them. (And say goodbye to the wonderful all-around challenge of the International 505.)
--Dave Eberhardt, US65xx, ex-861, ex-2514
Here are my views.
1. Are you in favour of changing the current format?
No.
I believe the races for our World Championship should be serious full-length races, with an opportunity to prepare properly for each race as far as reasonable. I prefer six or seven proper races to a greater number of Mickey-Mouse races. We are a highly competitive, ISAF-recognised International Class. We have no pressure from television or spectators for Crash-and-Bash spectaculars. Throughout the rest of the year we have plenty of opportunity for multiple races on shorter courses, at the many venues that are fun sailing but not suitable for championships.
Having proper length courses becomes more important, not less, now that we propose to have open World Championships. We expect well over 100 boats at Hyannis, and hopefully similar numbers at Quiberon in 1999. This hugely exceeds the largest class at the Olympics. I do not like the idea of splitting into A and B fleets.
With the quality and size of the fleet, the races are not normally processional, not for the vast majority of the fleet anyway. For most of us, to win a race at the 505 World Championship is the ambition of a lifetime, and for those lucky enough to achieve it, the experience of a lifetime. To debase that experience would be sad indeed.
2. If so, do you wish to have more than one race a day?
No, except to make up the number of races when a day's racing has been lost through unsuitable weather.
There is the risk of losing two (or more) races through damage, however good your boat preparation.
There will be a temptation to reduce the time limit for tail-enders, which in my view would be wrong: it is extremely depressing to be time-barred from a race; 60 minutes after the winner should be allowed.
I do not like waiting around afloat between races: one tends to get cold; one is usually unsure when the next start will be, thus precluding practicing further away from the committee boat. one has to carry extra drink etc. in the boat. peeing from a boat is no fun, sometimes difficult. However, I would not disagree with a proposal to try to maintain the seven-race programme by the use of two races in a day (rather than a six-race programme as at present).
3. If so, would you prefer 2, 3 or more races? Maximum 2 whatever the circumstances.
4. Should these shorter races have shorter legs, or fewer legs?
Not applicable, but if people insist on shorter races, I prefer fewer legs. Races with short legs:
5. Would you be in favour of relaxing the current Championship Rules regarding how far away from shore the course should be?
These rules are flexible, and the class has on many occasions chosen venues that do not fulfil all the championship requirements to the letter, with satisfactory results. It is recognised that many excellent sailing venues can be closer to land than prescribed. Nevertheless, we should retain the aim to have has high a quality venue as possible.
We had our UK Short-Course Championship last weekend at Stone S.C., and great fun it was too. I am sure you would all be welcome next year. But it is not World Championship sailing.
I like the present World Championship format, which has produced for us many very worthy champions, and has given wonderful sailing experiences for the rest of us.
- Rob (ex KH1910, K3215, K4321, K5021, K6021, K6729, K7189, K8021, and now GBR8429)
I agree with your sentiments entirely. And I say that as someone who supported, and still do, Mark Darling's lobbying for a greater number of shorter races and more varied courses on the UK circuit which, in my view, has greatly improved the enjoyment of some of our weekend open meetings. I am not so sure about the Nationals but can live with the current mixture of short and long. However, the Worlds should be the pinnacle; big race, big challenge.
I also have sympathy with the view that the social element of a worlds is an important factor in many people's enjoyment of the event - one good race a day gives ample opportunity for a good formal and informal social scene.
As someone who usually drags around the course a long way behind Mark I am touched by his concern for my enjoyment!! However, some of my most enjoyable races have been the Race of the Year in the UK, which by tradition is held on the Wednesday of the Nationals. The rules say that this shall be a minimum of 15 miles; in practice it is often nearer twenty. A lot of us get as much of a buzz out of the endurance aspects of such race in a stonking force four or five as we do about the number of boats behind us. I can appreciate that someone used to winning is going to get pretty hacked off if they have a bad first beat and round in 25th place with the leaders out of sight - of course they will want to bin that one and have another go as soon as possible. However, if winning was everything for the majority of the fleet there wouldn't be many left racing!
One innovation I think we should look at is putting a run after the first beat. The "traditional" format of having a reach first does ensure that by the end of the first lap the fleet is spread round two legs of the triangle. Having the run on the first lap opens up another tactical opportunity early on in the race (quite why I should want this I have no idea - given the choice I always get it wrong) and by the time we start the first reach the fleet will be slightly more spread out, thus reducing the size of the huge luffing rafts which spread the fleet out so in our current configuration.
Regards
Chris Thorne
One innovation I think we should look at is putting a run after the first beat. The "traditional" format of having a reach first does ensure that by the end of the first lap the fleet is spread round two legs of the triangle. Having the run on the first lap opens up another tactical opportunity early on in the race (quite why I should want this I have no idea - given the choice I always get it wrong) and by the time we start the first reach the fleet will be slightly more spread out, thus reducing the size of the huge luffing rafts which spread the fleet out so in our current configuration.
Do you really want 100 boats coming back down on you from the weather mark as you try to complete the first beat?
I think you would end up with the tail end of the fleet even further behind earlier than the current configuration. At leat with the current course, the leaders blast off out of the way allowing those behind to slowly emerge into clear air as they get near the mark (If they stay away from the reaching side of the course)
In addition, I favor a run after the beat as it would serve to keep the fleet closer longer (no mega-luffiing matches among boats in 40th or so, which is my personal favorite thing about big fleet races) and regardless of your fleet position, having more boats close makes the race more interesting and enjoyable.
Will has a good point about big fleeets and second leg runs, but in practice this is easily solved via the use of an offset mark some 50 or 75 meters reaching distance from the weather mark. With the new rules effectively prohibiting late port-tack approaches and given that in big fleets boats stack up on the starboard layline, even less interference from boats passing onto the run is going to occur.
Regards,
Mark Adams
When I raced 505's competitively I chose to do so because I wanted to race against the best in the world in the most challenging boats in true world championship conditions. The events were arranged to provide world class courses and we did not configure the events to pander to the fleet stragglers.
It's tough being at the back of the fleet, I know, I have been there, but that is what gives you an incentive to improve.
I'm sure if you had suggested 20 years ago that the races be shortened so as the back markers could get warm showers you would have been laughed out of the room by the likes of Loveday, Pajot, Marks, Farrant, Bethwaite or Surtees.
I know times change, but if you are going to arrange courses based on the lowest common denominator you are on the first stage of a slippery slope to social sailing and competitive irrelevence
Will Hartje
Hugh Morrin
Canada